One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Taking care of yourself and your crew

One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby Ekiwinox » 04 Mar 2016 23:28

I have heard that it is better to injure a person on the other side than to kill them because if one kills an person on the other side they take out one. If they injure a person on the other side the effectively take out the efforts of seven people due to their being needed to take care of the injured person. Imagine a community situation. One person down starts to seriously impact the needs of the community. Two people down and everybody is pretty much sunk. Presently living such a senerio I can clearly see how the rocks just tumble down with zero chance of help or anything. This seems to be just the start of a long post.

Through this whole process I feel like and I bet the reality of is I am a cattle being led down towards the chute. Or being led by a ring in my nose and chain.

Any ideas of how to avoid this?
Don't Start No Stuff. Won't Be No Stuff. ~Sister Kate

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Re: One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby Joe » 08 Mar 2016 11:13

Ekiwinox wrote:
Any ideas of how to avoid this?


Yes. A few come to mind:
1. Avoid Conflict
..place yourself in an area where fights are unlikely
..run away when you can
..develop a defensive posture that intimidates would be foes

2. Do not get injured
..have superior tactics and weaponry/strength than potential foes
..preempt the fight so as not to "absorb first blow"
..get in the best physical shape you can

3. Minimize injury
..everyone should know and be equipped to perform "first aid" (to the highest standard possible)
..have an evacuation plan
..have a mid term and long term care plan, people, materials

All of these work best when one is part of a cohesive, coherent, competent (starting to sound like a pastor)COMMUNITY (or team, or cohort, or group)
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Re: One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby kmussack » 08 Mar 2016 12:23

Without the services of modern trauma care, all but the most superficial Gun Shot Wounds (GSW) are ultimately fatal.
“The modern world demands that we approve what it should not even dare ask us to tolerate.” Nicolas Gomez Davila
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Re: One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby Joe » 09 Mar 2016 09:14

kmussack wrote:Without the services of modern trauma care, all but the most superficial Gun Shot Wounds (GSW) are ultimately fatal.


Ya know, I saw this comment on the video I did on this (thanks, Eki for the assist) and I almost responded to it but I guess I will do that here...

I think there would be MANY veterans of wars such as the Revolutionary War and the War of Northern Aggression (Civil War), were they alive, that would disagree with you.
People have historically been shot and wounded horrifically and yet still recovered.
Soap
Antibiotics
Amputation and Cauterization
And that is just what "I" am familiar with - let me recruit an 18D, Trauma Surgeon or someone like that and I believe more options will present themselves...

Never say "Die"
Prepare for the down side but look for the up side.
PMA

What must YOU DO to ensure someone in your group does not perish from a "non-superficial GSW" in a grid-down situation?
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Re: One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby kmussack » 09 Mar 2016 10:08

It’s been my observation that some of the most vigorous arguments are between people who agree with each other.

Yes, some type of care and intervention is better than none.
Do I advocate abandonment of the wounded? Most emphatically NO!
Yes, there are cases where horrifically wounded people survived. Read about Governor Chamberlain sometime.

I stand by my assertion; without the intervention of a modern trauma team/facility most GSWs to the torso and head will kill you eventually because meaningful treatment is beyond the skills of the layman and require equipment and supplies simply not available.

I quickly ran out and exercised my Google-Foo to collect some data about the efficacy of Civil War medicine to treat wounds in general;

Note: The vast majority of wounds in the Civil War were from Small Arms so this data is particularly applicable here.

Amputations were the most common procedures for war wounds to the extremities:
Hip level 83.3% mortality
Thigh (AK) 54.2% mortality
Leg (BK) 33.2 % mortality
Shoulder 29.1% mortality
Arm (humerus) 23.8% mortality
Forearm 14% mortality
Foot/toe 5.7% mortality
Hand/finger 2.9% mortality

Gunshot wounds of the extremities were most of the survivors. (I'm guessing meat wounds here. No bone.)

FWIW, in the Franco-Prussion War (post Lister) = 50% mortality Average (Incompetent French Doctors)

Abdominal Wounds:
There was no successful repair of an intestinal wound in the war. Mortality was nearly 99%. A notable exception was the survival of Joshua Chamberlain, MoH@Gettysburg. FWIW his old wound infected in 1914 and killed him.

Head Wounds:
Head wounds were mostly fatal although a few survived.

Vascular Injuries:

Civil war surgeons had nothing to offer the patient.

Overall the efficacy of Civil War treatment of wounded was horribly low.

What would I do to ensure that someone in my group survives a “non-superficial GSW” in a grid-down situation?
I would do everything within my power and capability while keeping up a hopeful outlook.
However, this doesn’t change the fact that the odds are against survival.
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Re: One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby kmussack » 26 Jul 2017 10:17

I found this interesting....

A guy named “Ray” posted this comment in response to an advertisement for a $600 2-day emergency medical course:

Another sales man trying to sell me something I don’t need, and all for the low low price of 600$ USD. For an advanced first aid coarse. I can get from the Red Cross. Guess what? For all you super smart “Freefor operators”: The “FREEFOR” HAS NO CASEVAC! — NONE ,and IF you do mange to get your wounded buddy to a government controlled hospital or vet clinic(yeh, dumbass that will work) You AND HE (or she) WILL go to jail, get water boarded and die. Or you can drag his(or her) screaming septic ass through the underbrush until they die. Or maybe, you can do what the NVA and VC did in South Vietnam and set up “clinics” in holes in the ground. They often used “Vet’s” as doctors too . They had a death rate of near 90% Don’t like that? Then stop pretending you are going to engage in irregular warfare. Because 90% of your wounded that cannot be treated with a blow out patch and Neosporin or delivered to a modern medical facility within hours are going to DIE, Horrid screaming, jerking, septic, shitting themselves death’s begging G_D and everybody else for help, and if you are not able to get them to a real Hospital no “school” on earth will help. That is the reality of irregular “anti-government” warfare. Don’t like that? Don’t play. Now go take that Red Cross advanced first aid class and put your 600$ into ammo. AND: Don’t like ((((())))? WELL……….FYTW.
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Re: One Man Down Equals Seven Men Down

Postby Kolt » 26 Jul 2017 15:59

I'll throw my 2.5 cents in here.

I've had a bit of medical training as has my wife. I know enough to know what I'm talking about and have had experience during deployments.

Her is the thing....

We can take facts and statistics from the previous wars mentioned in this thread, but we need to ask ourselves how relevant they are.

It is pointed out above that the statistics were from 'small arms' so they are relevant. I have to ask...are they?

The AR shooting a 5.56mm round is probably one of the most common rifles we are likely to be shot with with the AK shooting a 7.62x39 coming in a little further down the list. If it isn't those, it is going to be something larger is a .30 Cal like a .308/7.62x51 or even a .30-06. These rounds produce a bit more damage to human tissue than was seen in the previous wars mentioned above. These are high velocity center fire rifle rounds. This technology was not around in the wars discussed above in this thread.

Now, the other side of the coin is that our medical technology/skills has improved right along with the destructive power of small arms, maybe even more so.

So, with 'modern' medicine we are saving a lot more lives.

People like to bring up the 'fact' that in the USA the murder rate is on the decline. While this is true, it is not because fewer people are trying to kill each other, but instead that more lives are being saved due to increased/enhanced medical technology.

Will we have access to this medical technology is a WROL situation?

The answer is simple (not easy), but VERY VERY simple. Yes and no. If YOU want it, YOU will have it, but YOU will have to get it. If not, then no.

The burden is on you. Go learn it.Now for the post above claiming some high speed two day course. forget about it. Even if the course was all 2 days, 48 hours, you're not going to learn too much. The course I took was 6 months and focused on trauma and emergency . It has now been lengthened to 9 months. It is a serious investment in time to be properly trained.

Did I WANT it? Yes. I was fortunate enough to be in a particular place and time in my life where I could obtain it.

My wife was the same way, although we had to pay for hers. Together, with our complimentary skill sets, we have many, not all, but many bases covered. It took time and commitment.

Can you find someone with these skills already? Sure. It is possible. But, what if you can't? Well, in that case, if YOU want them, then YOU have to actively pursue acquiring them. Simple. It is just a matter of how hard you want them.

The question you need to ask yourself is how long you may want to look to find the right person? A month, 2,5,12? All of that time could be spent learning.

I don't think anyone would ever complain about having too much medical training or too many medically trained people in a WROL situation. You can chose to be part of the solution...or not.

Just my opinion.

Take care,
K
"I do today what others will not do, so I can do tomorrow what others cannot do" ... unknown
"The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty." Proverbs 27:12
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