I have been interested for quite a while in undertaking a massive project--trying to figure out how to do large scale water purification from scratch.
I looked for a decent microscope at yard sales this past summer (found a really cheap one--seemed more like a kids toy, so I didn't buy it) to enable looking at slides from samples of pond water, cloth-strained pond water, cloth-strained, sand filtered pond water, ... you get the picture.
I also want to learn about which chemicals can be used to test for which pollutants. I used to have some stuff that could test for nitrates and also a test to determine the amount of dissolved solids, but that was long ago and even if I could remember what those compounds were, I think I'll need more to do lots of different tests.
I know I can make my own carbon, but am interested in finding a source for activated carbon (a pound or so is about $20 at the fish store--way too much!)
I know there are ways to use the sun's UV rays to kill some bugs, but the systems I've seen online use old soda bottles which I'm not so sure are safe for re-use or long-term use (my emergency water supply is currently in 1/2 gallon plastic juice jugs, but the water seems to take on a strong plastic taste...)
One piece of my plan is to visit various local water treatment plants to see how they go about ensuring they meet EPA standards. Speaking of EPA standards, I guess that's another thing I need to do as a great starting place--visit the EPA website and review their long list of identified pollutants, "allowable" levels, potential problems associated with each one, etc.
Does anyone have experience in relatively large-scale water treatment or have any suggestions that might help me get started?
Viking Preparedness
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Water purification from scratch
8 posts • Page 1 of 1
Re: Water purification from scratch
by navedo on 07 Dec 2009 12:41
I realize I'm replying to my own post, but here's some info. I found on the safety of PET (polyethylene terephthalate), the plastic used in most packaging and bottles.
http://www.plasticsinfo.org/s_plasticsi ... 5&DID=2839
FAQs: The Safety of Plastic Beverage Bottles
To help assure the safety of our food, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration carefully reviews food and beverage packaging materials, including plastics for beverage bottles, before allowing them on the market.
Most convenience-size beverage bottles sold in the United States are made from polyethylene terephthalate (PET). PET has become the material of choice for bottled beverages because it is lightweight and shatter resistant, and PET has been extensively tested for safety. Bottles made with PET are widely used for everything from water and fruit juice to soft drinks and even beer.
* When consumers choose to refill and reuse convenience-size plastic bottles, should they be concerned about potentially harmful bacteria?
* What about the University of Calgary study?
* How do I know that the plastic in my bottle is safe?
* Will a plastic bottle leach harmful substances into water if I reuse it?
* What about the student project that claimed to have found unhealthy compounds in water samples from reused bottles?
* But I read that the student’s project found carcinogens?
* Is it true that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) only allows plastic beverage bottles, such as those made with polyethylene terephthalate (PET), for one-time use?
* Can freezing a PET beverage bottle cause dioxins to leach into its contents?
* Resources and Links
When consumers choose to refill and reuse convenience-size plastic bottles, should they be concerned about potentially harmful bacteria?
Not if they clean their plastic bottles between uses just as they would other drinking containers. Plastics are by nature extremely sanitary materials, and plastic bottles are no more likely to harbor bacteria than other kinds of packaging or drinking containers. Bacteria thrive in warm, moist environments. Once bacteria have been introduced, virtually any drinking container (coffee mugs, drinking glasses, serving pitchers, etc.) becomes a suitable environment for bacterial growth. Consumers should clean any drinking container with hot soapy water and dry thoroughly between uses. Bottles specifically designed for extended reuse are often made with wide openings that allow consumers to use cleaning instruments and easily dry them.
What about the University of Calgary study?
A University of Calgary study found bacteria in water samples taken from bottles that were refilled by elementary school students without being cleaned. The author of the study concluded that the source of the bacteria was inadequate personal hygiene practices on the part of students reusing the bottles. The fact that the bottles in this particular study were plastic is irrelevant.
How do I know that the plastic in my bottle is safe?
Consumers can be confident that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration carefully reviews new substances intended for food contact before allowing them on the market. This includes materials, like plastics, intended for food and beverage packaging. Both plastics and plastic additives are subject to FDA review and regulations. New packaging materials are permitted for food use only after FDA reviews the submitted test data and is satisfied that they are safe for their intended use. As part of its review, FDA assesses the migration potential of plastics and the substances with which they are made. Scientific tests are conducted to establish that there is a minimal amount of transfer between a plastic package and the food it contains and that any transfer does not pose a risk to human health.
Will a plastic bottle leach harmful substances into water if I reuse it?
Most convenience-size beverage bottles sold in the U.S. are made from polyethylene terephthalate (PET). The FDA has determined that PET meets standards for food-contact materials established by federal regulations and therefore permits the use of PET in food and beverage packaging for both single use and repeated use. FDA has evaluated test data that simulate long-term storage and that support repeated use. The toxicological properties of PET and any compounds that might migrate under test conditions have also been well studied. The results of these tests demonstrate that PET is safe for its intended uses. (For details, see The Safety of Polyethylene Terephthalate.)
What about the student project that claimed to have found unhealthy compounds in water samples from reused bottles?
The subject of a widely circulated e-mail hoax, these claims stem from a University of Idaho student’s masters thesis that was promoted in the media but was not subject to peer review, FDA review or published in a scientific or technical journal. While the student project may have been suitable work for a masters thesis, it did not reflect a level of scientific rigor that would provide accurate and reliable information about the safety of these products. Fortunately for consumers, FDA requires a much higher standard to make decisions about the safety of food-contact packaging.
But I read that the student’s project found carcinogens?
The student’s thesis incorrectly identifies di(2-ethylhexyl) adipate (DEHA), a plastics additive, as a human carcinogen. DEHA is neither regulated nor classified as a human carcinogen by the U.S. Occupational Safety & Health Administration, the National Toxicology Program or the International Agency for Research on Cancer, the leading authorities on carcinogenic substances.
In 1991, on the basis of very limited data, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency classified DEHA as a "possible human carcinogen." However, in 1995, EPA again evaluated the science and concluded that "...overall, the evidence is too limited to establish that DEHA is likely to cause cancer." Further, DEHA is not inherent in PET as a raw material, byproduct or decomposition product. DEHA is a common plasticizer that is used in innumerable plastic items, many of which are found in the laboratory. For this reason, the student’s detection of DEHA is likely to have been the result of inadvertent lab contamination. This is supported by the fact that DEHA was detected infrequently (approximately 6% of the samples) and randomly, meaning that the frequency of detection bore no relationship to the test conditions. Moreover, DEHA has been cleared by FDA for food-contact applications and would not pose a health risk even if it were present. Finally, in June 2003, the Swiss Federal Laboratories for Materials Testing and Research conducted a scientific study of migration in new and reused plastic water bottles from three countries. The Swiss study did not find DEHA at concentrations significantly above the background levels detected in distilled water, indicating DEHA was unlikely to have migrated from the bottles. The study concluded that the levels of DEHA were distinctly below the World Health Organization guidelines for safe drinking water.
Is it true that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) only allows plastic beverage bottles, such as those made with polyethylene terephthalate (PET), for one-time use?
No, FDA allows PET to be used in food-contact applications, including food and beverage packaging, regardless of whether the packaging is intended for single or repeated use. PET beverage bottles sold in the United States are designed for single use for economic and cultural reasons, not because of any safety concerns with PET. In fact, refillable bottles made with the same PET resin as single-use bottles are safely reused in a number of other countries. The only difference is that refillable bottles have thicker sidewalls to enable them to withstand the mechanical forces involved with industrial collection and commercial cleaning and refilling operations.
Can freezing a PET beverage bottle cause dioxins to leach into its contents?
This is the subject of another e-mail hoax. There simply is no scientific basis to support the claim that PET bottles will release dioxin when frozen. Dioxins are a family of chemical compounds that are produced by combustion at extremely high temperatures. They can only be formed at temperatures well above 700 degrees Fahrenheit; they cannot be formed at room temperature or in freezing temperatures. Moreover, there is no reasonable scientific basis for expecting dioxins to be present in plastic food or beverage containers in the first place.
So here's a start, at least. They did have a number of links to the sites and studies from which they obtained their information, which I'll try to check into and pass along the useful tidbits. Also, the bottles I have are stamped "PETE" on the bottom, so if anyone already has info on that plastic, please pass it along!
http://www.plasticsinfo.org/s_plasticsi ... 5&DID=2839
FAQs: The Safety of Plastic Beverage Bottles
To help assure the safety of our food, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration carefully reviews food and beverage packaging materials, including plastics for beverage bottles, before allowing them on the market.
Most convenience-size beverage bottles sold in the United States are made from polyethylene terephthalate (PET). PET has become the material of choice for bottled beverages because it is lightweight and shatter resistant, and PET has been extensively tested for safety. Bottles made with PET are widely used for everything from water and fruit juice to soft drinks and even beer.
* When consumers choose to refill and reuse convenience-size plastic bottles, should they be concerned about potentially harmful bacteria?
* What about the University of Calgary study?
* How do I know that the plastic in my bottle is safe?
* Will a plastic bottle leach harmful substances into water if I reuse it?
* What about the student project that claimed to have found unhealthy compounds in water samples from reused bottles?
* But I read that the student’s project found carcinogens?
* Is it true that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) only allows plastic beverage bottles, such as those made with polyethylene terephthalate (PET), for one-time use?
* Can freezing a PET beverage bottle cause dioxins to leach into its contents?
* Resources and Links
When consumers choose to refill and reuse convenience-size plastic bottles, should they be concerned about potentially harmful bacteria?
Not if they clean their plastic bottles between uses just as they would other drinking containers. Plastics are by nature extremely sanitary materials, and plastic bottles are no more likely to harbor bacteria than other kinds of packaging or drinking containers. Bacteria thrive in warm, moist environments. Once bacteria have been introduced, virtually any drinking container (coffee mugs, drinking glasses, serving pitchers, etc.) becomes a suitable environment for bacterial growth. Consumers should clean any drinking container with hot soapy water and dry thoroughly between uses. Bottles specifically designed for extended reuse are often made with wide openings that allow consumers to use cleaning instruments and easily dry them.
What about the University of Calgary study?
A University of Calgary study found bacteria in water samples taken from bottles that were refilled by elementary school students without being cleaned. The author of the study concluded that the source of the bacteria was inadequate personal hygiene practices on the part of students reusing the bottles. The fact that the bottles in this particular study were plastic is irrelevant.
How do I know that the plastic in my bottle is safe?
Consumers can be confident that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration carefully reviews new substances intended for food contact before allowing them on the market. This includes materials, like plastics, intended for food and beverage packaging. Both plastics and plastic additives are subject to FDA review and regulations. New packaging materials are permitted for food use only after FDA reviews the submitted test data and is satisfied that they are safe for their intended use. As part of its review, FDA assesses the migration potential of plastics and the substances with which they are made. Scientific tests are conducted to establish that there is a minimal amount of transfer between a plastic package and the food it contains and that any transfer does not pose a risk to human health.
Will a plastic bottle leach harmful substances into water if I reuse it?
Most convenience-size beverage bottles sold in the U.S. are made from polyethylene terephthalate (PET). The FDA has determined that PET meets standards for food-contact materials established by federal regulations and therefore permits the use of PET in food and beverage packaging for both single use and repeated use. FDA has evaluated test data that simulate long-term storage and that support repeated use. The toxicological properties of PET and any compounds that might migrate under test conditions have also been well studied. The results of these tests demonstrate that PET is safe for its intended uses. (For details, see The Safety of Polyethylene Terephthalate.)
What about the student project that claimed to have found unhealthy compounds in water samples from reused bottles?
The subject of a widely circulated e-mail hoax, these claims stem from a University of Idaho student’s masters thesis that was promoted in the media but was not subject to peer review, FDA review or published in a scientific or technical journal. While the student project may have been suitable work for a masters thesis, it did not reflect a level of scientific rigor that would provide accurate and reliable information about the safety of these products. Fortunately for consumers, FDA requires a much higher standard to make decisions about the safety of food-contact packaging.
But I read that the student’s project found carcinogens?
The student’s thesis incorrectly identifies di(2-ethylhexyl) adipate (DEHA), a plastics additive, as a human carcinogen. DEHA is neither regulated nor classified as a human carcinogen by the U.S. Occupational Safety & Health Administration, the National Toxicology Program or the International Agency for Research on Cancer, the leading authorities on carcinogenic substances.
In 1991, on the basis of very limited data, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency classified DEHA as a "possible human carcinogen." However, in 1995, EPA again evaluated the science and concluded that "...overall, the evidence is too limited to establish that DEHA is likely to cause cancer." Further, DEHA is not inherent in PET as a raw material, byproduct or decomposition product. DEHA is a common plasticizer that is used in innumerable plastic items, many of which are found in the laboratory. For this reason, the student’s detection of DEHA is likely to have been the result of inadvertent lab contamination. This is supported by the fact that DEHA was detected infrequently (approximately 6% of the samples) and randomly, meaning that the frequency of detection bore no relationship to the test conditions. Moreover, DEHA has been cleared by FDA for food-contact applications and would not pose a health risk even if it were present. Finally, in June 2003, the Swiss Federal Laboratories for Materials Testing and Research conducted a scientific study of migration in new and reused plastic water bottles from three countries. The Swiss study did not find DEHA at concentrations significantly above the background levels detected in distilled water, indicating DEHA was unlikely to have migrated from the bottles. The study concluded that the levels of DEHA were distinctly below the World Health Organization guidelines for safe drinking water.
Is it true that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) only allows plastic beverage bottles, such as those made with polyethylene terephthalate (PET), for one-time use?
No, FDA allows PET to be used in food-contact applications, including food and beverage packaging, regardless of whether the packaging is intended for single or repeated use. PET beverage bottles sold in the United States are designed for single use for economic and cultural reasons, not because of any safety concerns with PET. In fact, refillable bottles made with the same PET resin as single-use bottles are safely reused in a number of other countries. The only difference is that refillable bottles have thicker sidewalls to enable them to withstand the mechanical forces involved with industrial collection and commercial cleaning and refilling operations.
Can freezing a PET beverage bottle cause dioxins to leach into its contents?
This is the subject of another e-mail hoax. There simply is no scientific basis to support the claim that PET bottles will release dioxin when frozen. Dioxins are a family of chemical compounds that are produced by combustion at extremely high temperatures. They can only be formed at temperatures well above 700 degrees Fahrenheit; they cannot be formed at room temperature or in freezing temperatures. Moreover, there is no reasonable scientific basis for expecting dioxins to be present in plastic food or beverage containers in the first place.
So here's a start, at least. They did have a number of links to the sites and studies from which they obtained their information, which I'll try to check into and pass along the useful tidbits. Also, the bottles I have are stamped "PETE" on the bottom, so if anyone already has info on that plastic, please pass it along!
- navedo
Re: Water purification from scratch
by mosby's men on 07 Dec 2009 16:50
i just got a couple of black berkley filters off of ebay , 2 food grade 5 gallon buckets and i made my own filter
. i set it up once a week and filter a bunch of drinking water and put it up .
2 filters last me about a year .
. i set it up once a week and filter a bunch of drinking water and put it up .
2 filters last me about a year .
-
mosby's men - Viking Moderator
- Posts: 1264
- Joined: 21 Mar 2008 18:23
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Re: Water purification from scratch
by navedo on 07 Dec 2009 22:23
YA--that looked like a good medium term option, but I'd like to know how to make the guts of the Berkey and how to make a bigger one.
- navedo
Re: Water purification from scratch
by navedo on 18 Dec 2009 14:37
Apparently, the type of carbon used in most home filters is GAC (Granulated Activated Carbon). I'm not sure what size is used, but I did learn that 5 gallon buckets of the stuff can be had for about $100.
There's also a piece in most home filters that filters out particulates down to 1/2 micrometer. Not sure yet how that's done, but I'm planning to cut my old filter in half when I screw in the new one.
There's also a piece in most home filters that filters out particulates down to 1/2 micrometer. Not sure yet how that's done, but I'm planning to cut my old filter in half when I screw in the new one.
- navedo
Re: Water purification from scratch
by LaniganRiver on 08 Feb 2010 13:37
You might look into Aquatic Eco-systems, Inc. They sell to people who bread fish to sell to pet stores and fish farmers and the like. You might look into systems these people use to clean the water in thier fish ponds/tanks. The reason being they have to remove solid waste, chemicals,etc to have quality water. I am not trying to violate any rules and hope I'm not. I am not pushing this seller just saying that you might investigate them as a source for the charcoal or you might find they have a alternative to charcoal. I know that some people use a pourious ceramic marble type thing to filter coy (mispelled) ponds. I would say a system that filters water several times and then distill the filtered water would be the most safe.
- LaniganRiver
Re: Water purification from scratch
by LaniganRiver on 08 Feb 2010 13:52
Sorry to double post. I just looked up a old catalog out of my file of catalogs and see that Aquatic Eco-Systems, Inc offers nylon screening with mesh that ranges from 35 microns to 5000 micros and offers carbon filter material (pf3) that is a polyester fiber hevaily coated with activated cardon. So I'm sure you could find what you want for your system there.
- LaniganRiver
Re: Water purification from scratch
by LaniganRiver on 08 Feb 2010 14:57
I'm sorry. I do not mean to be taking over this thread. I just forgot to include everything I wanted to bring up in one post. As to water purification from scratch. Have you considered a series of settling pools with plants like catails planted between them? Also consider stockpiling cholrine for swimming pools. You could use a a series of filters and use the filtered water to fill a large 200 gallon or larger tank and then use the pool cholrine to shock the water. of course, you would have to wait for the shocked water to be drinkable.
- LaniganRiver
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